TEIWiki:IdleTalk

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Hello

This is an attempt to create a forum for general discussion on topics relevant to this wiki. Something to replace repeated entries in multiple users' discussions. For now, it is just, it seems, James and Kevin who can be counted on to discuss matters on a regular basis, but we do want to attract more people here, don't we. If we can persuade even a fraction of the community behind TEI-L to visit this place and edit here, things will definitely start rolling faster. And the larger the wiki, the more people it will attract, and so on. And once the powers-that-be notice that it is useful, perhaps they will even consider a software upgrade :-), which will stop the automated spam and make editing easier by removing some of the annoying bugs (more on that later).

Aha, I admit I didn't think long about the name of this page, so it's happily open to modification. I intended it to be something like <idleTalk>, but the software may have a problem with the < sign, and linking to it might be problematic, too. I'll try to hook it up to the sidebar in a moment, hoping it's ok with everyone.

So let's see how this works and if it works at all. Piotr 11:37, 25 September 2007 (BST)

response

Kshawkin: I've mentioned upgrading MediaWiki to James and later to Chris Ruotolo. Chris told me it will have to wait till after P5 1.0 -- that is, until at least November 2007.

  • Thanks for the info. I intended to start a topic listing the reasons for an upgrade (mostly bugs and spam-control issues), just to show that it's more than a matter of chasing the cutting edge, but I'm glad to hear that things are moving on anyway. Piotr 20:45, 26 September 2007 (BST)
    • Just to say I've talked to ChrisR and DanielP and others about this and the plan is indeed to move the wiki (and possibly a instance of Roma) to Viriginia, and one assumes simultaneously update to a newer version. James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)
      • The wiki has been moved to the new server at Virginia, and as of February 2008 it is running MediaWiki 1.10, and has anti-spam measures in place. --DavidSewell 21:39, 11 February 2008 (EST)
  • Huzzah! 23 November 2011, we are now upgraded to MediaWiki 1.16.5. Further upgrading will require an upgrade to PHP 5.3 on the server (which has been requested)
    • PHP 5.3 is now installed. At this point I think we may as well wait for the stable release of MediaWiki 1.18. --DavidSewell 22:06, 8 December 2011 (EST)
      • Good news -- yeah, let's wait, this version does its job nicely, for now. Thanks! Piotr 13:38, 9 December 2011 (EST)

A different main page layout?

Was thinking of making the main page slightly more attractive, but I haven't come far: see User:Piotr Banski/sandbox (and possibly the history of that page) for some attempts. Everyone's invited to modify it, I'm not really good at such things. (You don't have to worry about spoiling things, it's just a copy of the main page in my user space.) Thanks, Piotr 11:47, 25 September 2007 (BST)

  • Since this is a wiki, I just went ahead and put in a new version. Tried to make it a bit less dry and provide a bit more explanation for where links lead. Won't have any problem with a revert, the old version is just a click away. Piotr 20:40, 26 September 2007 (BST)
    • This seems better to me. We also need a major CSS change and should style it to look like the new website (but I suppose that should wait until it is migrated). James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)

Categories

Tried to make some sense of them (and for them). I'm a bit uneasy about the following categories and articles, and will be grateful if someone can verify both their purpose and my handling of them:

Kshawkin 14:13, 25 September 2007 (BST): Category:Interfaces does seem to be a subcategory. I've modified it to make it so. Category:Extension appears unrelated to the tools section of the wiki.
Category:Extension seems to duplicate Category:Customization but may have been intended as its subcategory (it mentions detailed customizations as opposed to attribute-less customizations mentioned in Category:Customization). Perhaps it was meant as a holder for special customizations to DTDs ("DTD extensions"), the way it was done up to P4? Let me nest it within "Customization" and see what happens. It definitely deserves a bit more explanation for its purpose to become clear (and/or possibly it needs to be renamed to mention DTDs directly). Piotr 21:40, 25 September 2007 (BST)
There may have been a misunderstanding behind Syd's modification of James's original description of the category. Went back to James's version, hoping I got it right. Piotr 21:49, 25 September 2007 (BST)
Created Category:DTD Extensions. Thinking of scrapping "Extension" (?) Piotr 00:26, 9 October 2007 (BST)
I'm unconfortable trying to use the phrase 'DTD Extensions' and 'Extension' being used where we now mean 'Customization'. The Guidelines use 'TEI Scheme' and 'Schema' throughout when referring to the general and the specific. 'Schema' is a general term that incorporates RelaxNG/W3C Schemas *and* DTDs. See also the Conformance section of the USE.html chapter of the guidelines. The phrases we should be using are 'Customization' for something that is 'TEI Conformant or Conformable', and 'Extension' for something which adds concepts not in the TEI abstract model. We want people to realise that to use the TEI you should be customizing it (i.e. especially constraining and removing all those things they aren't going to use) James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)
I've discovered the new meaning of "extension" pretty late, indeed :-) Soo, it looks like "customization" and "extension" should be categories of equal status under the more general "schema(s)". Right? On the other hand, "customization" also sounds good as a more general term, forking into 'TEI-conform*' and 'TEI-extensions'. Sigh, tomorrow, given 7 hrs on the train, I'll finally have the time to go through the relevant chapters of the new Guidelines thoroughly. Piotr 12:16, 5 November 2007 (GMT)
Definitely read the Conformance section: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/USE.html#CF
  • XML Versioning -- it would be great to have some more info on what this is about :-) Schema versioning, perhaps?
There was interest at one point in possibly setting up a SIG interested in the various versioning soultions out there, including the Versioning Machine, XML Diff, SynchRo Soft's XML diff, etc. etc. but I think this is stagnant and/or rolled into the Tools sig. James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)
  • Category:CSS, Category:XQuery and Category:XSLT mention an address for stylesheet submission. I'm just wondering if it still works and if someone checks it. Maybe it would be easier (and definitely less time-consuming) to just ask for direct submissions into TEI Wiki (?) Piotr 13:52, 25 September 2007 (BST) Solved: stylesheets@tei-c.org: host jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU[128.143.22.122] said: 550 stylesheets@tei-c.org: User unknown in virtual alias table (in reply to RCPT TO command). Removed the address from these three categories. Piotr 00:19, 26 September 2007 (BST)
This address used to forward two Myself and I think Dan O'D., but it seems to have disappeared ...
  • Put Category:XQuery and Category:XSLT into Category:Tools, as they partly fulfilled the criteria (articles on XQuery and XSLT have been in that category for a while), though it felt a bit wrong, like shifting from a narrow understanding of tools as software to broad understanding of tools as including specs/languages that make your job easier. By the same token, I should treat Category:CSS alike. They just don't feel right as root categories, but "Tools" does not feel right as the sole containing category, either, it seems to me. Piotr 22:19, 25 September 2007 (BST) Still rather unhappy about that, see below.

Category trees

This is what the category situation looks like right now. I'm not saying this is perfect, mind you :-) Posting this info here hoping for comments and ideas for improvement. Piotr 22:50, 25 September 2007 (BST)

  • Root categories:
    1. Code (CSS, XSL*, XQuery, etc.; mostly contributed samples)
    2. Community (TEI-community-related)
    3. Customization (pieces of ODDs)
    4. Markup (mostly contributed samples of P4/P5)
    5. TEI Wiki (in the TEIWiki and Help namespaces; internal docs)
    6. Tools
    7. Scratchpad (added around 23:04, 1 November 2007 (GMT))

The more detailed category structure is as follows:

  • Code:
    • CSS
    • XQuery
    • XSLT (subcategories: target formats (TEI:P4 and TEI:P5 may need to appear here, too) or XSLT versions)
      • HTML
      • P4toP5
      • XSLT:1.0
      • XSLT:2.0
  • Community:
    • Grants
    • Publications
    • SIG
  • Customization:
    • Extension (to be renamed to "DTD Extensions", perhaps? see above)
  • Markup (containing both objects to be described (like graphics) and specs to express the description in (like tei:p4) -- while not perfect, I think this state of affairs is bearable):
    • Graphics
      • Facsimiles
      • SVG
    • TEI:P4
    • TEI:P5 (these two, P4+P5, may also need to appear under "XSLT", as target formats)
  • TEI Wiki:
    • Users
  • Tools:
    • Administrative tools
    • All-in-one Tools
    • Analysis tools
    • Conversion and preprocessing tools
    • Development tools
    • Editing tools
    • Header creation tools
    • Interfaces
    • Publishing and delivery tools
    • Querying tools
    • Testing and QA tools
  • Scratchpad (meant for things ephemeral, added on 23:04, 1 November 2007 (GMT))
    • Archive (not sure how useful it can be)

Thought of gathering "Markup", "Code", and "Customization" under a new root category, "Samples", but each of the three categories contains more than samples (docs or software happen there), so the result would be misleading, I'm afraid. Piotr 21:53, 26 September 2007 (BST)

And I managed to misuse Markup, I think, by putting Comic Book Markup Language and Category:FreeDict there. Yet another (root?) category, Category:Projects, may be coming up, from what Kevin tells me. Piotr 23:04, 1 November 2007 (GMT)

--Emcaulay 12:28, 3 June 2010 (EDT)Question about using categories. I am editing minutes and agendas for the SIG:Libraries and I'd love it if they would sort in reverse create date order on the categories page. I hope my question makes sense...

Hi, thanks for putting stuff into categories, I always cringe when I see a new specialized page created with a generic title -- categorizing them will definitely help avoiding confusion. As for sorting, this is done largely mechanically, with a small margin for influencing it: if you just do [[Category:Something]], sorting will be done by the first letter of the page name; you can influence that by doing [[Category:Something|sort-key]] -- so maybe there's your answer: start by applying key such as "[symbol you want the articles to appear under]999", and count down with every new minutes page. Possibly smarter ways to achieve that exist, but I can't think of any that would be simple and quick to implement. Please let me know if there are problems with it. Note that this implies your editing of every page, there is no function that you can invoke "from outside", because even if you played with the advanced features of the wiki, I think you could get as far as the date of the last modification, rather than the creation date. And that would imply editing each page anyway. Now it is my turn to hope I'm making sense ;-) If not, ask away (I'm online until tomorrow morning, later on I'll be rather slow with replying for a week or so). Piotr 13:29, 3 June 2010 (EDT)

Licensing

I'm uneasy about a certain possible licensing discrepancy. Call for stylesheets sets GLPL as the default license for the code samples published on this site, but under the edit box we are told that the obligatory license is GFDL 1.2 (not sure if this can be changed in the settings, and anyway, the existing 94 or so articles have already been submitted under this very license). I'm far from expert in this field, so I'll be grateful if someone could set this right or at least explain what's going on (automatic double licensing for code as opposed to documentation?). Thanks, Piotr 21:21, 26 September 2007 (BST)

  • See also: TEIWiki:General disclaimer.
    • See http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/access.xml the guidelines and most TEI materials are licensed GPL2. That material on the wiki is licensed GFDL seems more reasonable since it is secondary material and the Guidelines are more than just documentation (since TEI ODD means they are the schema source as well) Since the stylesheets are software of a sort, we suggested GPL. (I think at the time the wiki had no licensing notification.) I don't think the double licensing is too much of concern -- GFDL and GPL both contain the kinds of licensing which we'd want. I think if ever challenged in court (how likely is that?!?) I think they'd claim that either one or the other applied, or strangely both of them. (Which wouldn't be bad.) But, IANAL. James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)

GFDL 1.3 has been created. Can we simply assume that whoever wanted their stuff published under GFDL 1.2 has no problem with "any later version" of it? The quoted passage is what I'd like to add at places like TEIWiki:General disclaimer and in the footer for all pages. GFDL 1.3 is the bridge between GFDL and CC-BY-SA. Piotr 17:55, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Unused images

It's possible to generate a list of images that are not linked to from anywhere, so let me post the link here, in case they can be made use of. One of them is actually a RNG file uploaded as image by mistake: Image:MyTei.rng. Piotr 21:21, 2 October 2007 (BST)

    • The RNG file was uploaded as an attempt to see if we could upload RNG (and other attachments) for download in some non-textual way. So wasn't really an error, but we just never deleted it. oops. No one has really uploaded many images used -- so maybe if/when wiki is migrated those can be ditched. James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)

ToDo (ToBeWritten)

This ought to move onto a separate page when/if it grows, perhaps: a list of articles/subjects that seem relevant. There is also a special page where empty targets for two or more links are displayed: Special:Wantedpages. Piotr 01:14, 6 October 2007 (BST)

Yeah, I say just create links to pages and use the Special:Wantedpages list as a pages-to-edit list. James 03:18, 4 November 2007 (GMT)

Upload file error

When I try to upload a .jpg file, I get the error message "The upload directory (public) is not writable by the webserver.", and the file is not uploaded. Am I missing something, or is this a bug? --Martin de la Iglesia 06:30, 12 December 2011 (EST)

Thanks, Martin -- it looks like a configuration problem, I get the same result. I have sent David Sewell (our Webmaster) a message asking for assistance. Piotr 08:43, 12 December 2011 (EST)
... and, thanks to David, it works now! Piotr 10:29, 12 December 2011 (EST)
I can confirm that, thank you very much! --Martin de la Iglesia 07:24, 13 December 2011 (EST)
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